A Class Blog exploring American literature and the American experience.
Tuesday, January 3, 2012
By now we have almost finished the book and have learned a lot about Archer. Do you believe that Archer has free will, or are his choices determined by society. Why or why not?
I think that Archer strives to have free will, but some things in his life are still determined by society. It seems that it is easier for him at times to just go along with society's rules, rather than fighting every little thing. He seems to think that he has the capability to fight society, but when the time comes it is harder for him to do it rather than just saying it. One instance of this is when he goes to talk to Countess Olenska at the grandmothers house, but she is not there. Afterwards he realized that he almost felt relief to know that he did not have to deal with going against society with her. However, he is realizing that he detests the society's unwritten rules and how he used to act under them. Since Countess Olenska has become such an important part in his life, his eyes have been opened and he is almost seeing the society through an outsiders point of view, someone like her. Even though this has changed his perspective he still is somewhat controlled by society.
I agree with Jillian and I think that Archer continues to defy society only in his mind,and although he thinks about it and comes close to running away with Countess Olenska, he ends up feeling relieved and falls back into his old ways. As the book goes on, Archer definitely becomes more willing to defy society and make independent choices when he meets Olenska and like Jillian said he starts to see the world from a different perspective and sees the silliness of some of society's rules. Despite his newfound courage to go against society, Archer rarely acts against it and usually reverts back to his old ways because his way of life has been drilled into him so many times. I also think that every time he goes home and sees May he is reminded of his duty as a husband and his place in society even if he doesn't like it, and it makes him more reluctant to defy it. So I think that Archer definitely has free will, he is just not courageous enough to put it to use and because of this it seems as though his choices are determined by society.
I agree with Jillian that Archer strives to have free will but in the end, society makes his descions for him. The time when he bought flowers for Countess Olenska he was defying society's orders. But then he backs down when it comes to talking to her on the pier. I think he wants to have free will but society is always telling him no. Also, I think May represents the choices that society makes and Countess Olenska represents free will. Archer will have to make a descion of what he wants or if he has the courage to have free will.
I really agree with what Caroline said. If May represents conforming with society, and Ellen represents freedom of ones will, then it is obvious in the story that Archer chose the former. Throught the book, there are several obvious examples of Archer wanting to be free of society's expectations, but just can't bring himself to do so. The scene on the pier, buying Ellen flowers, and the secret meeting in the museum are all examples of this. Even in the last scene, many years later when Archer has a chance to reunite with Ellen after May's death. Even though nothing is holding him back, Archer still refuses to take action, and accept the free will that Ellen represents.
I agree with all of you that Archer tries to make choices that go against society but really he makes choices that are determined by what society would say and do and he only goes against society in his head and doesn't really go against society in real life. In the end his choices definitely are decided by society because he has to let Ellen go and has to stay with his wife May.
I agree with everyone on here because I think the book has become more about individual vs. society, then it has between two women. As Caroline mentioned, Olenska represents his own free will, while May represent what society wants him to do. I feel like Archer does not want to suffer the consequences of his own free will, therefore he just does what is easiest and conforms. However, his relationship with Olenska will never be that easy for society to understand and they might never understand. I think Archer feels like he owes something to society by conforming, but he is truly subject to his own free will. I feel as though Archer will never be able to truly let go of his feelings about his image in New York's society, therefore he won't be truly happy. This is so similar to the Scarlet Letter, because Dimmesdale could not let go of what he had done or stop thinking about how society would view him. This caused his unhappy ending which resulted in his death and I feel as though this same kind of unhappy ending will happen to Archer.
I think that he is controlled by society but as Jillian says, he tries his best not to be. For example, he marries May even though he is in love with Ellen ,which is because of the society, but has an affair with her cousin, which isn't accepted by society. First he convinces Ellen not to divorce from her husband because people told him to but then he convinces her not to go back to her husband because he wants her to stay which wasn't what everybody else wanted.
I think that Archer does have free will like everyone else but he gives into society and that is what keeps him from having free will. Through out the book Archer is questioning society but most of his desions are determind by it. Similair to Cedriks piont I also think that he married May instead of runnning off with Ellen because he ultemently gave into society. By giving into the marriage he feels trapt and he ends up not running away with Ellen because May is pregnant. It is frowned upon in society to abanden your wife when she is pregnant. I think that this scean proves that he does end up making desitions based on society even though in this case it is for the better.
i agree with nicki, and after class today where we talked about the 'family vault' metaphor used in the book, i really believe that though archer does have free will, as any person does, he is completely trapped by society. May and her family have trapped him by his obligation to their baby, and the fact that everyone knows about may. though he could choose to leave his child and reject society, he values society and his image too much to do that. so yes, as nicki said, archer does have free will, but he uses that free will to follow society
I think that Archer strives to have free will, but some things in his life are still determined by society. It seems that it is easier for him at times to just go along with society's rules, rather than fighting every little thing. He seems to think that he has the capability to fight society, but when the time comes it is harder for him to do it rather than just saying it. One instance of this is when he goes to talk to Countess Olenska at the grandmothers house, but she is not there. Afterwards he realized that he almost felt relief to know that he did not have to deal with going against society with her. However, he is realizing that he detests the society's unwritten rules and how he used to act under them. Since Countess Olenska has become such an important part in his life, his eyes have been opened and he is almost seeing the society through an outsiders point of view, someone like her. Even though this has changed his perspective he still is somewhat controlled by society.
ReplyDeleteI agree with Jillian and I think that Archer continues to defy society only in his mind,and although he thinks about it and comes close to running away with Countess Olenska, he ends up feeling relieved and falls back into his old ways. As the book goes on, Archer definitely becomes more willing to defy society and make independent choices when he meets Olenska and like Jillian said he starts to see the world from a different perspective and sees the silliness of some of society's rules. Despite his newfound courage to go against society, Archer rarely acts against it and usually reverts back to his old ways because his way of life has been drilled into him so many times. I also think that every time he goes home and sees May he is reminded of his duty as a husband and his place in society even if he doesn't like it, and it makes him more reluctant to defy it. So I think that Archer definitely has free will, he is just not courageous enough to put it to use and because of this it seems as though his choices are determined by society.
ReplyDeleteI agree with Jillian that Archer strives to have free will but in the end, society makes his descions for him. The time when he bought flowers for Countess Olenska he was defying society's orders. But then he backs down when it comes to talking to her on the pier. I think he wants to have free will but society is always telling him no. Also, I think May represents the choices that society makes and Countess Olenska represents free will. Archer will have to make a descion of what he wants or if he has the courage to have free will.
ReplyDeleteI really agree with what Caroline said. If May represents conforming with society, and Ellen represents freedom of ones will, then it is obvious in the story that Archer chose the former. Throught the book, there are several obvious examples of Archer wanting to be free of society's expectations, but just can't bring himself to do so. The scene on the pier, buying Ellen flowers, and the secret meeting in the museum are all examples of this. Even in the last scene, many years later when Archer has a chance to reunite with Ellen after May's death. Even though nothing is holding him back, Archer still refuses to take action, and accept the free will that Ellen represents.
ReplyDeleteI agree with all of you that Archer tries to make choices that go against society but really he makes choices that are determined by what society would say and do and he only goes against society in his head and doesn't really go against society in real life. In the end his choices definitely are decided by society because he has to let Ellen go and has to stay with his wife May.
ReplyDeleteI agree with everyone on here because I think the book has become more about individual vs. society, then it has between two women. As Caroline mentioned, Olenska represents his own free will, while May represent what society wants him to do. I feel like Archer does not want to suffer the consequences of his own free will, therefore he just does what is easiest and conforms. However, his relationship with Olenska will never be that easy for society to understand and they might never understand. I think Archer feels like he owes something to society by conforming, but he is truly subject to his own free will. I feel as though Archer will never be able to truly let go of his feelings about his image in New York's society, therefore he won't be truly happy. This is so similar to the Scarlet Letter, because Dimmesdale could not let go of what he had done or stop thinking about how society would view him. This caused his unhappy ending which resulted in his death and I feel as though this same kind of unhappy ending will happen to Archer.
ReplyDeleteI think that he is controlled by society but as Jillian says, he tries his best not to be. For example, he marries May even though he is in love with Ellen ,which is because of the society, but has an affair with her cousin, which isn't accepted by society. First he convinces Ellen not to divorce from her husband because people told him to but then he convinces her not to go back to her husband because he wants her to stay which wasn't what everybody else wanted.
ReplyDeleteThis comment has been removed by the author.
ReplyDeleteI think that Archer does have free will like everyone else but he gives into society and that is what keeps him from having free will. Through out the book Archer is questioning society but most of his desions are determind by it. Similair to Cedriks piont I also think that he married May instead of runnning off with Ellen because he ultemently gave into society. By giving into the marriage he feels trapt and he ends up not running away with Ellen because May is pregnant. It is frowned upon in society to abanden your wife when she is pregnant. I think that this scean proves that he does end up making desitions based on society even though in this case it is for the better.
ReplyDeletei agree with nicki, and after class today where we talked about the 'family vault' metaphor used in the book, i really believe that though archer does have free will, as any person does, he is completely trapped by society. May and her family have trapped him by his obligation to their baby, and the fact that everyone knows about may. though he could choose to leave his child and reject society, he values society and his image too much to do that. so yes, as nicki said, archer does have free will, but he uses that free will to follow society
ReplyDelete